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Do people with personality disorders have 'zero empathy'?
Posted Monday 11 April 2011
Does a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, or antisocial personality disorder mean someone has ‘zero empathy’? Are they naturally ‘capable of inflicting physical and psychological harm on others and are unmoved by the plight of those they hurt’? According to Simon Baron-Cohen it does, as outlined in this article in The Independent published last week. Baron-Cohen is professor of developmental psychopathology at the University of Cambridge who makes these claims in his book Zero Degrees of Empathy.
Looking at borderline personality disorder (BPD) as an example, it’s a controversial psychiatric diagnosis. Mind’s guide to BPD explains that some people find the suggestion that their personality is disordered, or ‘wrong’ distressing. Equally, having a diagnosis can help people find ways to manage their condition.
People with BPD can have symptoms that make life very difficult – poor self image, difficulty in building or maintaining relationships, feeling despair one day and confident another – which often has a significant impact on their day-to-day life. As a result, people with BPD are more likely than those with most other psychiatric diagnoses to have suicidal thoughts or make suicide attempts. They are far more likely to hurt themselves than anyone else.
However, borderline personality disorder is manageable and there are many things people with the diagnosis can do to help themselves cope better and manage their condition. The majority of people with BPD feel better in the long term. Being stigmatised as pathological and people with zero empathy, as Baron-Cohen suggests, is not helpful for people with BPD or their friends and family.
BPD can be distressing for the people around those who are diagnosed with it. Someone with BPD is likely to often feel very low about themselves, and may not know how to ask for help. People who experience BPD still want to be loved and cared for but may feel that they do not deserve this. Reminding them of good things about them can help. They have to find their own way to get a sense of self-worth, but support from friends and family does help.
People with BPD have a strong need to feel accepted – they are not unmoved by others but find it difficult to feel that others value them. The portrayal in the Independent is unlikely to help this. Mind’s information gives a more realistic explanation of the disorder and how people with it can find help.
Calling people with diagnoses of borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, or antisocial personality disorder ‘pathological’ is inaccurate and reinforces inappropriate generalisations that should be challenged. In particular, the implication that people with these diagnoses are often criminals is entirely inaccurate.
Mind’s report, Another Assault, demonstrated that people with mental health problems are more likely to be victims of crime than to commit them. 71 per cent of survey respondents with mental health problems had been a victim of crime in the last two years. They are 11 times more likely to be victimised than society as a whole.
BPD, ASPD and NPD are serious psychiatric conditions. Generalising that they mean people diagnosed with them have ‘zero empathy’ and are a danger to others is incorrect and could cause harm.
What do you think? Have you been diagnosed with a personality disorder? Have you experienced stigma and/or discrimination?
Sam Challis, Mind Information Officer
If you are interested in finding out more about personality disorder read Mind’s information: Understanding personality disorders, Understanding Borderline personality disorder or Understanding dissociative disorder.
38 Comments
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I have a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder and am very active in creating positive awareness of this illness. My recent article "Living with BPD" was featured in Uncovered Magazine, which you can read online at , http://www.uncoveredmagazine.co.uk/psychology/bpd/living-with-borderline-personality-disorder-bpd.html detailing the highs and lows of living with this devastating condition.
Through campaigning across the UK my hope is that people begin to understand the person behind the Personality Disorder, and it is fantastic to see organisations like Mind bringing it to the public's attention.
Kayla Kavanagh
http://www.kaylakavanagh.com -
I am diagnosed with BPD and know several other people with the same diagnosis, who are all kind, caring people. How are we supposed to get on in life with idiots like this making such awful comments.
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I have a diagnosis of BPD and have for a few years now I completely disagree with the article in the Independant people with any personality disorder especially BPD may hurt themselves but not others an the intention is never to hurt others. The article in the Independant makes me feel very angry as the stigma against any mental ilness is bad enough especially BPD and other personality disorders and this article is likely to increase the amount of stigmatisation!!!
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Thank you Mind for your response to this article. I am fed up of reading articles associated with Baron-Cohen's new book which end up equating people with personality disorders to the worst kind of evil do-ing e.g. Holocaust perpetrators. The stigma associated with BPD is bad enough without this kind of prejudice being given credence under the guise of a 'science' which is fanciful at best.
On a personal note as someone diagnosed with BPD I wonder how my supposed lack of empathy allows me to cry at movies, maintain my 10 year strong happy and loving relationship and feel quite sorry for Simon Baron-Cohen and his deep misunderstanding not only of personality disorders but also what can and can't be demonstrated using fMRI studies.
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I agree with Borderline; I cry for my mother's abusive history, I cry at others' losses and sadness, I cry at books and films. I try *not* to cry most of the time, but even when I succeed, I still feel those things - like *anyone* would and should.
I have been with my partner for eight years and have never been abusive towards him, something of which I have been accused. Our relationship is stable and happy and delightfully 'normal'. That is not possible when one half of the partnership has no empathic and/or is sociopathic.
Honestly, I can't understand where this mass demonisation of BPD came from. Yes, at the extreme end of the scale, you see a lot of behaviours that are 'challenging' - but that's the point: they're *extremes*. At the extreme of *any* continuum that's what you're likely to find. I know a lot of people with BPD, and almost none of them meet the criteria for the stereotyped image that still remains out there.
Anyhow, thanks for this response and getting the message out!
Best wishes
Pandora
http://serialinsomniac.com -
As a psychology student I find much of the work of Baren-Cohen inspiring and exciting, particularly his work on autism. But as a BPD suffer I find his comments on this topic upsetting and unconstructive. The points made by Sam Challis are far more helpful.
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I quite agree with this article as well as the comments above.
"borderline personality disorder" =/= "bad person"
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Having difficulties in coping with and expression emotions is NOT the same as having zero empathy and being pathological. After being diagnosed with BPD several years ago I began to realise that I was struggling with managing emotions so kept them bottled up inside and coped with them in self-destructive ways when I couldn't bottle them up any more. In many ways I empathised too much and took too much on board, worrying about how others would feel if I did or didn't do certain things.
A diagnosis of BPD has enabled me to have appropriate treatment from the NHS which has revolutionised things for me. I still struggle and feel overwhelmed by emotions, but have learnt ways to manage this.
It's not a diagnosis that I tell others about and the only people who know are my GP and psychiatrist. Baron-Cohen's comments do not encourage me to start opening up to others like I have finally been able to about Depression and Anxiety which I also struggle with.
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So now we are inherintaly evil as well as being scrounging scum. I have just come back from a day working for NOTHING helping other people at the CAB to be faced with this! Perhaps this overprivelidged tosser would like to explain why is is mainly working class women who are saddled with this label-are women more evil than men? are the working classes more evil than those with more money? I am not going to justify myself or prove to ANYONE how empathatic I am to defend myself against this insult. I look forward to another article from a middle class (male) journalist about his 'battle with manic depression' (funny how its always bipolar for this class of people). No doubt as society needs its scapegoats this will be used as another bullying tool for people labelled PD becasue the MH system didn't like them or proved 'too difficult.' Well let me tell you something-a good old Quote from Millwall fans, 'Nobody likes us, everybody hates us, and DAMN IT WE DON'T CARE!'
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For me, I avoid articles and work on bpd because the stigma attached within the health profession is too extreme. When I was in a depressive crisis, instead of offering help, the locum psychatrist simply told me, he couldnt help someone like me, and to come back in 6 weeks. After that appointment it is the only time i have physically collapsed in tears, I have never encounted such difficulty getting access to even the most basic of services from the mental health system, since this diagnosis was given., I wouldnt mind so much, if i even displayed the symptoms but that is hardly relevent here.
Thank you mind, for continuing to do the fantastic work you do, I only wish more people could listen to what you say
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There are many types of personality disorders and one is avoidance personality disorder, another is histrionic personality disorder. Those who have either disorder have emotions and some empathy.
I've been reading Thomas Patrick Sheridan's book 'Puzzling People; the Labyrinth of the Psychopath'. He labels sociopaths and those with narcissistic personality disorder as psychopaths though sociopaths he calls socialised psychopaths. He writes that BPD doesn't exist as it was invented to sell medication. There's a grain of truth in that. It does exists but is rare. Many of those diagnosed with BPD are really narcissists or psychopaths while others are just chronically depressed or have bipolar disorder.
Just as Asperger's Syndrome is on the autistic spectrum it is my opinion that narcissistic personality disorder is on the psychopathic spectrum. There are many people who have some psychopathic traits and sometimes behave like psychopaths because of their upbringing but are not psychopaths as such but proto-psychopaths. There is hope for them with therapy and social skills training.
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According to that artical I have both positive and negative zero empathy. I know I struggle to 'read' people, as would most people if you've spent a life time araid and lonely and avoiding everybody. That doesn't make people with borderline or narcistic personality disorders 'evil'. Somebody with a low and shattered self esteem that already thinks they are bad will absorb this title and it'll become a selfr believe, and can be used to fuel the frequent self destructive behaviour and self hatred associated with these conditions. Correct mew if I'm wrong but a lack of empathy and potnetial criminal behaviour was only a diagnostic catagory antisocial personality disorder, and isn't in the other 2. I know its not part of bpd, as a sufferer I have read about it, impulsiveness and self harm are features.
With my own struggle with empathy, it isn't a deliberate malicious or calculated thing. It is me struggling with the world of people, I connect more with animals. In fact if I accidentally hurt somebody I am horrified and mortified, then I have to punish me. I know I trip up a lot, which means I beat myself up a lot. However my social clumsiness (poor empathy) Is more due to aspergers than bpd. I don't think its something to be coined with evil, I think to be 'evil' is proberbly more about enjoying it than not connectinbg properly. It sounds like the author is struggling with the concept that some people can be just bad without it being something pathological. Its the arguement of bad vs mad. Suppose it brings it closer to home to think that a person was capable of something horrific, and would be more copmforting to think it was some form of mental health condition that made them do it.
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I've read about BPD being referred to as 'the dustbin diagnosis', and it seems to be so not only in terms of attitudes towards people who have this diagnosis - from mental health staff as much as anyone else - but also in terms of it being a trashcan to dump service users in when psychiatrists don't know how to deal with or categorise someone's symptoms. For so long it was considered untreatable, therefore professionals lumped supposedly 'difficult cases' into this category and washed their hands of responsiblity for recovery or care.
My diagnosis is Bipolar Disorder Type 2, but I was originally diagnosed with Schizoaffective Disorder in 1995. During a hospital stay three years ago my then consultant decided I did not have any psychotic symptoms and described me as having Major Depression. I know this only because I applied to read my psychiatric notes. My current psychiatrist initially described me as having Major Depression, Anxiety, Social Anxiety & Some Psychotic Symptoms, and recently re-diagnosed me as Bipolar. If my diagnoses can vary so much according to the staff who treat me, then how 'accurate' can any diagnosis of BPD be?
I was a voluntary befriender for a mental health organisation for four and a half years during times of better mental health, and spent one year supporting a woman with a diagnosis of BPD. She rejected the diagnosis and put her difficulties down to traumatic life experience. What a terrible shame that any professional involved in her care or diagnosis did not have enough insight to understand that it was this trauma that needed to be dealt with. The idea that she was unable to feel empathy is ridiculous. Having a mental illness myself, I never regarded her as odd or 'different' (and I think this kind of prejudice skews many people's interpretations of behaviour), and the amount of thought she put into how difficulties in the lives of others might be alleviated was very noticeable.
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BPD is a controversial diagnosis, one which I am happy to admit I have. I also have a deep level of empathy for others, so much so that on occassion I find it too much to handle.
Articles such as these perpetrate the myths surrounding mental illness and do nothing to help those living with mental illnesses in our country today. Thank goodness for Mind and similar charities for taking a firm stance on such articles and ensuring that we maintain a level of humanity, even when we are dealing with "science"!
www.lauramay.org -
Interesting. I'm diagnosed with BPD and I think that the extracts from the book were fair to an extent, but that a bit too much hyperbole was used.
It depends what one means by empathy. Generally I'm empathic, I have good listening skills and good 'soft skills', I can understand things. But when I'm plunged into a depression or a rage there's no room in my head for considerations for other people, I can't think about how I'm affecting others because the depression or rage takes up all the room in my brain. The example of borderline in the Guardian article was of a mother who loses her temper with her kids, without any understanding of how much it hurts her kids. I think that's a fair representation.
The man who stabbed a man in a bar wasn't a borderline and the article made that abundantly clear.
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@Teresa - I'd be interested to read the stats you have on BPD being rare. Do you have a link?
I can see what you're saying about the diagnosis being 'created' to sell drugs, but as I'm sure you're aware, these days NICE strongly advise against medicating those diagnosed with BPD. Yet it is still, in psychiatric terms, a common diagnosis - so one part of what you say doesn't match up with the other here, unfortunately.
Maybe the reason for that is that in the case of some psychiatrists they 'use' a BPD diagnosis on someone that they can't be arsed treating, thus perhaps making it seem more common that it really may be. I don't know. I've been treated terribly in terms of NHS therapy because of the diagnosis ("you have BPD, you need specialist not generic therapy" ... "we don't have specialist services in this Trust so you're on your own there, love"), but I must admit I've been very lucky with my current consultant. She doesn't care what my diagnosis is; she just treats my symptoms as best she can. If only they were all like that.
Best wishes
Pandora
http://serialinsomniac.com -
I read this artcle when it was published and was furious. I have been diagnosed with BPD for 17 years I have many friends and am thought of a lot by my friends. How do I know this? They tell me. I do show empathy and I have never hurt any other living sole. The only other person I have hurt is myself.
@ Artic Roll I have to defend myself as a parent. I have never have nor would use emotional blackmail towards my children. I have never threatened my husband of 12 years or two children (8&11) that I would commit suicide. I just wouldn't because I DO have empathy. It would be wrong very wrong. I am there however I feel for my children my deep darkest days or my happy days.
I know I am not a minority too.
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i am bpd and think this article is a disgrace and just goes to prove that "research" can be used to prove any point of view you wish. i know for me i can be very empathetic and have worked in several fields where this has been necessary, and have often been accused of too caring. i would be devestated to knowingly hurt anyone, for me even in crisis i have found that my actions are still tempered by not wanting to hurt anyone. as i have suffered at the hands of others i have no wish to replecate that at all as i know how it feels. as bpd we are very good at beating areselves up and dont need articles such as this for everyone else to do it to us.
i think in this article he has used the extreme to justify his point of view, but as we all know the extremes in anything is not always good.i dont think this article does anything to inspire confidence in so called "experts" and unfortunately with the diagnoses of bpd you get enough prejudice with trying to get help and support without articles like this supporting the negative views from those who are supposed to help us.
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"These are people with borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. They are capable of inflicting physical and psychological harm on others and are unmoved by the plight of those they hurt."
That statement makes me feel sick. I am diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, however like many others I happen not to agree with my diagnosis. In fact I believe many people are incorrectly diagnosed, in truth I'm not sure the condition even exists, however even if it did it should not be lumped together with Antisocial Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality disorder, in which sufferers display very different symptoms than a sufferer of BPD. I know many people diagnosed with BPD are very few have ever inflicted physical harm upon another person, whereas all have inflicted harm upon themselves.
Out of interest I decided to test myself on the 'Empathy Quotient' which can be found at:
http://glennrowe.net/BaronCohen/EmpathyQuotient/EmpathyQuotient.aspx
I scored 58 which apparently means I have 'above average' empathy. If asked I would say I very high empathy levels, sometimes debilitatingly so, I put others before myself and often base my decisions on other people's feelings rather than my own. I am also extremely intuitive, which is a handy skill but also means I have a habit of doing things such as silencing myself based on the feelings I pick up from others. However I find the questions on the test somewhat misleading, someone with 'normal empathy levels' could score low simply because they are anxious in social situations. Shyness and even general anxiety/social anxiety disorder does NOT equate to low empathy levels!Regarding 'Attachment theory' and "which I translate into a lack of empathy because many of the personality disorders, like the psychopath, or people with borderline personality disorder are just operating on a totally self- centred mode. Early attachment is one big risk factor for low empathy." No!!! Insecure attachment, neglect and abuse does not cause low empathy, it causes traumatisation and the symptoms which develop from that. Majority of people diagnosed with BPD have suffered trauma or abuse at some point in their life and to relate sufferers to psychopaths is outrageous! BPD sufferers (if we pretend their is such a disorder) are not self centred, they are hurt, confused often traumatised and scared - and if they weren't abused as children they most probably will be by psychiatric services who generally neglect, harm and (further) traumatise people diagnosed with personality disorders.
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I was most intrigued this morning to read this blog post and all the intresting comments-including from my friend Laura May.
In 1993 I was erroneously diagnosed with NPD. This came about in the main because I was extremely difficult to work with and did not respond to treatment. That label is as damning as it can possibly get in psychiatry. By 1994 I was deemed untreatable and told that my prognosis was I was likely to commit suicide within 6 months. Well I'm still here and doing very well.
It took an extremely wise and enlightened psychiatrist to change my life in 2001. She correctly diagnosed a mood disorder, treated it, and the rest is history.
I have carved out a very successful career in mental health since then, something that would be impossible without empathy.
Like the rest of the world I have traits of BPD but that is not something that impacts much on my life. A damning verdict on people who are difficult to treat.
Coincidentally, I'm launching the book version of my story today. In the unlikely event anyone is interested it is available on the following link:
http://chipmunkapublishing.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=1801
Mark47
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I see the diagnosis of BPD [indeed all PD's] as an insult to people's very real distress, experiences and intelligence.
There is a campaign to get this diagnosis removed from the DSM:
http://www.cabl.co.uk/
The Coalition Against the Borderline Personality Disorder is against the label, not the people who get saddled with the label. The notion of personality being 'disordered' isn't universally accepted by service users and there's often little space for people who don't support this diagnosis as a description of their distress and don't wish to see it 'better understood’. For some women, being diagnosed as BPD has seriously hurt them and this label often facilitates abusive treatment within services [especially within A&E and forensic services]. Their voices are rarely heard because to express dissent is seen as further 'evidence' of the diagnosis.
To grasp how some women feel about being called 'Borderline' imagine how you might feel if were called a paedophile - that's the level of hurt it causes some people.
Despite the rhetoric the same attitudes exist within services towards people defined as PD, sadly it's often little more than a clinical insult but the emerging industry with its charismatic consultants proffering their brands of treatment are doing pretty well out of it.
BPD is as much psychiatry's core misogyny [as the majority diagnosed as BPD are women] as Schizophrenia is its claim to 'science'. -
This a copy of a response made by me and a group of my friends, colleagues and allies to Baron-Cohen's article ..... I wish the Observer had chosen to publish, or some of the excellent posts above, in response to that dreadful piece of journalism ...
We agree with Simon Baron-Cohen that empathy is an extremely valuable resource that has been ignored not nurtured in our society. However, it is worrying that he doesn’t appear to demonstrate this quality himself in his descriptions of people with so-called ‘borderline personality disorder’ (or what he charmingly refers to as ‘Borderlines’ or ‘Type Bs’). It is a painful irony that people so-labelled are among the most misunderstood and mistreated persons within the mental health and criminal justice system. Unfortunately, this situation is not helped by the assumptions and stereotypes that Baron-Cohen himself endorses.
Giving someone a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) can be experienced as a crushing and often misogynist insult to distressed people (mainly women) This diagnosis hurts. It is frequently unhelpful and even harmful. Instead of seeking to understand this distress - often most usefully framed as the legacy of early trauma and abuse, and attempts to survive that legacy - it can reinforce suffering by blaming the victim. Witness, for example, patients being stitched or stapled without anaesthetic following self-harm – a situation more likely if one has a BPD diagnosis because you are more liked to be blamed for your condition than people with other diagnoses.
Sadly, Baron-Cohen's article does not reflect on this reality. Instead, it makes unsubstantiated links between BPD, psychopathy, bad parenting and selfishness. In his willingness to write off sections of the population as having ‘zero empathy’ he unhelpfully lumps together abuse victims and perpetrators. This is a further insult. Surely the key point is not ‘abnormalities in the empathy circuit in the brain’ but rather the abuse that people have suffered in their lives – an abuse that continues to be perpetrated in systems that are supposed to ‘help’ not harm.
Yes, empathy cannot, by definition, oppress anyone. However, a failure of empathy by those deemed ‘experts’ on the subject can contribute to the oppression, misunderstanding and mistreatment of those already failed by society.
Mark Cresswell
Kaety Moore, artist
L Pembroke
Dr. Helen Spandler, Senior Research Fellow, University of Central Lancashire
Dr Sam Warner, Consultant Clinical Psychologist and Research Fellow, Manchester Metropolitan University
Clare Shaw, service survivor and director of harm-ed training -
I REALLY wish so-called "expert scientists" wouldn't make such damaging sweeping statements. I'm a physicist with Borderline Personality Disorder so according to Baron-Cohen should have zero-empathy. Well, i've just taken HIS empathy quotient questionnaire and scored above average... and i know i won't be the only one. If anything, my experiences have made me less self-centred and more in-tune with other people's problems and the plight of humanity itself. I strongly support MIND's response to this damning article together with its involvement in the Time to Change campaign. Baron-Cohen has only contributed negatively to the image of real people like me who face a daily battle, not only with our condition but also against the stigma which comes with it. It's easier to tell people about my depression and anxiety than it is my BPD and articles like this remind me why. I trained as an MRI physicist and have worked in fMRI research ... perhaps i should read his book and publish a review.
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Apparently Stephen Fry said in an interview that his diagnosis of bipolar disorder is bearable "because it's a mood disorder not a personality disorder". Not much consideration for how that would have made people living with the label feel. Ok, we know PD is at the bottom of the diagnostic hierachy but for a former Mind Champion to not even attempt to conceal the prejudice is disappointing to say the least.
You never see any celebrity rushing to 'come out' as PD, because they know what it means. -
I am relieved to see that finally one of the uk's leading mental health charities is finally not reinforcing the existing stigma relating to this condition. When i was first diagnosed I looked at minds information to try and come to terms with the bombshell that had hit me and I am affraid to say it didn't offer me much hope and added to my feelings that this was all my fault.I am lucky and live in an area with specialist services, however looking at infromation provided by many mental health trusts it is obvious that with in the services that are supposed to help there is a very negative veiw that is outdated and actually stigmatising showing a clear lack of knowledge and understanding and they are infact risking making their service users more unwell and then complain that they are untreatable. Considering recent research suggests that BPD with the correct treatment has a better remission rate than bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, and has got detectable biological causes that can be treated with long term psychotherapy.
There also seems to be very poor recognition that each individual with bpd is very different, and lumping everyone together is very unfair. On the subject of empathy I feel that bpd sufferers do not lack empathy they are in fact at times too sensitive too the suffering of others and this can overwhelm their already fragile coping mechanisms, I know many sufferers who have worked in the caring professions and go out of their way to help relieve the suffering of others and end up neglecting their own needs leading to the anxiety and depression of bpd, once again it is improtant to recognise that every one is individual. Although I have met sufferers who blame everyone else for their suffering, in my experience it is far more common that the suffferer blames themselves hence the high suicide rate! Blaming others should be seen as a desperate attempt to stay alive and not manipulative. I myself do not blame anyone else but struggle to understand my very irrational emotions, often aware they are out of proportion adding to the internal conflict. BPD is now known to be both genetic and developmental and the prevailing idea that suffferers want to be like this is rife in mental health in this country and actually prevents suffers from recovering as it triggers huge psychological difficulties in a group that have massive problems trusting (often if you bother to find out with good historical reason) and without trust you cannot recover, as a sufferer I am very ready to accept responsibility for my failings but would like the services to also do this and not just blame the sufferer as you will just make them sicker which unfortunately reaffirms your inaccurate veiw. -
@ ChocolatePills:
"@ Artic Roll I have to defend myself as a parent. I have never have nor would use emotional blackmail towards my children. I have never threatened my husband of 12 years or two children (8&11) that I would commit suicide. I just wouldn't because I DO have empathy. It would be wrong very wrong. I am there however I feel for my children my deep darkest days or my happy days.
I know I am not a minority too."
I'm married with a daughter and I would never INTENTIONALLY use emotional blackmail. I don't threaten to kill myself either, I don't tell them that I hate their guts. But when I'm really depressed or angry I am not able to understand or appreciate how my behaviour impacts on them, I don't have the brain capacity to consider how my self-harm or my anger or whatever would hurt them too. Afterwards, when the episode of anger or depression has passed I do, but actually during the depressive or angry episode I don't.
It's what I mean by understanding what's meant by empathy. I think Baron-Cohen's been too simplistic in his argument and some of the articles have been very badly written by the journalists. For me, though, the uncomfortable truth is that there is something in it. That doesn't mean I'd go and break the legs of kittens for the lols, but I do upset my wife sometimes without understanding why.
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Spike Milligan had bipolar and yes he was a genius. Stephen Fry is just another flakey celebrety not that talented. For God's sake he had a minor breakdown and ended up in BELGIUM! (probably the funniest thing he ever done). Of course he wouldn't want to labelled PD with all its negative connotations. I read all these comments from sensitive talented bloggers most of which like me labelled BDP. Perhaps the mainstream media would like to publish some!? Thank you Mind for highlighting this issue, so much needs to be said,
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NICE self-harm longer term management guidelines which are out for consultation:
"There is an unhelpful circularity in that self-harm is considered to be one of the defining features of both borderline and histrionic personality disorder. The diagnostic label tends to divert attention from helping the person to overcome their problems and can even lead to the person being denied help (National Institute for Mental Health in England, 2003). Some people who self-harm suggest that the label personality disorder can lead to damaging stigmatisation by care workers. Moreover, this stigma may prevent those who self-harm from seeking help."
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Thank you for posting this response to the article in the independent. I had read the article and did find it quite distressing. I am going through a bad patch at the moment and have not got very high oPinions of myself so this for me just made my beliefs that I'm a bad person even stronger. I had a baby boy 12 weeks ago and have been struggling to feel adequate, or to be a good enough mum. I am under mother and infant mental health team as well as local Cmht all of which tell me I am being an excellent mother to my son but I find it hard to believe them. Anyway sorry for going on! Thanks again as it has helped me to not absorb simon baron cohens thoughts any further.
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We don't know if Baron-Cohen said those things about Borderline PD, and I doubt that he did. The article on the Independent is about him, it was not written by him. BPD is very treatable. Unfortunately the DSM-IV includes it in cluster B disorders such as Antisocial PD, hence the misunderstandings.
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The funny thing is that I have a BPD diagnosis, and when I went to Mind Sunderland for help, I was turned away because of my diagnosis. Twice.
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While I do agree that it is wrong to apply stigma to BPD, because those who do have BPD do also have empathy, and if they do indeed want help- then Dialectal Behavioural Therapy is extremely helpful- I believe it is important to spread the word that there can be help in dealing with this 'disorder'. There is hope there, it's wrong to have BPD in the cluster B category, because I think lumped with the two extremes of NPD and ASPD mean that many therapists are very reluctant to treat.
However, I do not believe it is a fair assumption to put narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder in this same category of 'lets not give up altogether'. I have had my own horrific experience of what psychopathy and narcissism can cause with the victims of these people. I also work closely with many wonderful people who have been on the receiving end of narcissistic abuse, and for all of the research I have done in the past four years on the subject, there is very little hope. For one reason in particular, and that is that narcissists and psychopaths do not believe they have a problem. They believe, through their own narcissistic defences that the rest of the world is the problem, not them. For one to receive help, one has to be willing to admit they have a problem to begin with, and take ownership of it, and to fix it. The likelihood of a 'true' psychopath or narcissist of turning up in a therapists office, unless for their own Narcissistic Supply/ ulterior motives of manipulation and abuse of others (game playing). I truly believe the best way to deal with these destructive personalities is to narrow their victim pool by creating world wide awareness of how sociopathy and narcissism operates, and how to protect oneself- i.e- No Contact. -
My diagnosis is anxiety, depression and BPD traits, so not full BPD. I do find my emotions very hard to manage, and struggle to feel that I fit in and am accepted, feel very unsure of who I am etc, which is where the BPD bit comes in. Actually, however, one of the most difficult areas for me is *over*empathising/identifying with others. I work in criminal justice and I struggle to leave work at home at night because I worry about clients so much. I also find it hard to filter out very distressing accounts of victims' experiences of serious sexual or violent crime. When terrible events happen on the news - the recent Japanese earthquake and tsunami being an example - I can become overwhelmed by the scale and depth of others' suffering. It is true that at times I prioritise my needs over those of family and friends. It's a survival mechanism, and one I beat myself over all the time; it's not that I don't empathise with them, it's that I am swept away by the despair I often feel.
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The asseveration is incorrect. Most of BP I met are empathic and compassionate. We know about rejection, we've experienced soul-pain by first hand, but we we've seen a brighter world too!
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I feel i have symptoms to both BPD and NPD and not sure of myself and deep down don't like myself and worry how bad i am as a person, or how i may have caused harm or hurt people especially my family i love them and wish i could take anything back... and being a young woman as well more prone to criticizing and bitching about other people mainly women and just building my own self worth through different obsessions, addictions, worlds of different mes.... and having negative attitudes and outlooks on life mainly myself. If i could be anyone else i would this worries me daily i hate lies ive told.... i really spit on mysself for that ... i try and accept karma and bad things and be patient because its only my own doings that brought it on.
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Dear Jane, I’m sorry to hear that you had this experience with Mind Sunderland. Mind’s work is all about making sure that people who experience mental distress are treated fairly, positively and with respect. Local Minds are independent charities, but they sign up to our vision and quality standards. Have you approached them to complain? If you’d like to talk about this more, please email webmaster@mind.org.uk Take care, Taryn from Mind
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Hi Anon. I'm sorry to read you're feeling that way. I hope you're doing ok and if you're able, hope you will get some support from your family or friends. The Samaritans are at the end of a phone or email if you need some support too: jo@samaritans.org 08457 909090
Take care, Taryn from Mind -
The Guardian has an open comment thread after a podcast of simon baron cohen's on his book. I suggest people head over and say what they have said here, over there.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/audio/2011/may/05/science-weekly-podcast-simon-baron-cohen
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